Interview with Oluwo Nelson Laurenti of the Palo.Org

The following is an interview I conducted with Oluwo Nelson Laurenti, a Lukumi Babalawo located in Los Angeles California, founder of the Palo And Lukumi Organization. We discuss his plans and reasons why our community needs a new church in the Los Angeles area.

Oluwo, thank you for allowing me the honor and the time from your busy schedule to conduct this interview for the Palo.Org.

?Gilbert, it?s always a pleasure to speak to you. I hope to fully address your questions and concerns.?

Thank you Oluwo. First, the Palo.Org has been around for a few years now. How did the PALO Organization get established?

?I won?t bore you with too many details, but from 1988 when I was initially ordained in to Osha, to about 1994 I was under the tutelage of my immediate Elder Olga Martinez a priestess of Obatala, and Palera. Around December of 1994 after suffering work related injury, at the direction of the Orishas I then began to branch out to establish my own temple and congregation. A few years later I founded the Palo.Org, and by 1999 I created an online presence for the organization.?

Once you learned from the advice of the Orisha?s that you needed to establish your own temple, did you feel adequately trained to branch out on your own?

?Yes I did, but I don?t think one can ever feel they are fully capable of taking on the problems of society. The responsibility we have as spiritual leaders is an extraordinary one. I found that my first years as an Oni Yemaya were full of lessons that I would have otherwise not learned if it were not for my dedication and loyalty to God, Olodumare, by having complete faith in his sacred word.?

How do you mean his sacred word?

?Those of us who have been ordained in to Osha and Ifa receive an ita; a life reading is how I can explain it. In Osha this is conducted through the divinatory process using cowrie shells. In ifa the ita is conducted with sacred ikin seeds. The ita is a very personal matter that must not be taken lightly, and once received we must study our reading in order to live a more balanced and complete life with the hope of avoiding major life problems through our obedience and faith, and achieve our personal destiny while on this earth.

Because of my experiences both good and bad for the first few years of Osha, I consider my approach as ?Faithful Obedience?. This is the term that I coined when I first established the Palo.Org, and refer to it when speaking to others about following God?s sacred word: We do it in Faithful Obedience.?

You said that you experienced good and bad things the first few years after doing your Osha. Wasn?t the purpose of doing Osha to avoid or prevent bad things from happening in your life?

?No. The purpose of doing Osha is to become an ordained priest. That was my understanding then, and 20 plus years later continues to be my understanding. When we are ordained in to Osha we become people of holy stature. This means we must conduct ourselves in a respectful and dignified manner every day of our lives from the moment Osha ordination is conducted. After receiving ita, this is where we learn about our true self: our past, present and future issues. Each of us as individuals must and will experience a variety of issues necessary for our spiritual growth. Knowledge of life does not come without experiencing both the good and bad, either directly or indirectly.

As long as we respect and follow our ita religiously and apply Faithful Obedience we should never fear life?s experiences. Hopefully we can all understand that it is some times necessary to go through many types of experiences in order to learn the lessons that God has obviously set forth for us to learn so that we can apply this knowledge and help others avoid these issues, or assist them through their particular difficulties.?

Oluwo, you?ve mentioned that after doing Osha a priest is then considered Holy. How does one remain or conduct themselves in a Holy manner, as you have put it?

?In simple terms an Osha priest obviously represents his tutelary Orisha on earth. The sacred osha ceremony establishes the individual in a state of holy union between themselves and their Orisha by the will and blessings of God Olodumare. One must understand the holy nature of this union and live a life void of arrogance and selfish interests.?

Obviously you are now a priest of Ifa. How does this differ from being an Osha priest?

?In technical terms if I can put it this way: in the hierarchical religious structure the Lukumi Ifa priesthood is the highest priesthood ordination obtained. An Osha priest, Olorisha as it is termed, is a man or woman having achieved ordination to their tutelary Orisha. The Olorisha is in fact a junior priesthood ordination when compared to the Babalorisha and Iyalorisha, each of which has conducted ordinations of other priests. The Babalorisha and Iyalorisha are junior to the Ifa priest also known as a Babalawo, Awo Orunmila or Oluwo.

To answer your question on a more personal note, I feel that all knowledge is quite helpful and necessary, and by having been ordained in to the Ifa priesthood has been a great experience for myself and family. Orunmila brings another level of spirituality that no other orisha was able to for me. At least that was my experience as well of those in my family. I?ll leave it at that. I hope that was clear.?

Yes, thank you. Oluwo, what are your future plans for the Palo And Lukumi Organization, the Palo.Org as it?s referred to?

?We are planning to relocate and establish our ?church? in the Los Angeles area in a more centralized location. Since we are presently located in Lancaster, the high desert region of Los Angeles County, it is difficult for many of our faithful adherents in the Los Angeles area to commute and conduct worship services on a weekly or biweekly basis. Although we do conduct many types of services, our worshipers desire to do this closer to a more populated area, and most worshipers are located closer to Los Angeles than they are the Lancaster/Palmdale area.?

Do you have a target date for this relocation?

?Initially we planned to relocate as soon as we found adequate commercial space that meets our unique needs and is affordable. Actually, we?ve already chosen a uniquely centralized area, and have visited one church that is for sale and seems to meet most of our present needs. Unfortunately the real estate market in the greater Los Angeles area is so unpredictable and hyper-inflated even at this time in November 2008, that we find it virtually impossible to purchase or lease any commercial space at a reasonable cost. If we were talking in terms of real estate costs dating back to pre-2001 prices, then perhaps it would be feasible for my family to purchase the desired property.?

Well first let me ask. Are you saying that your family plans on purchasing the property?

?Yes, initially we did plan on purchasing property for our church. However, the real estate market is still way over priced. Even if we wanted to lease the property, it?s just too expensive.?

Okay, my next question then is why isn?t this paid for by the church or congregation?

?Ah, yes, the church and its congregation. Interesting question. You are aware that most of the people in our religious community presently suffer the same issues as the rest of the population in regards to the economy, and many of them find it difficult to keep their heads above water, right??

Yes.

?You also know that our religious community is not accustomed to, nor have they ever contributed a tithing to a church??

Yes I see where you?re going with this.

?Well, some times we need to make the necessary sacrifices for the greater good, and my family and I have contributed quite a bit of our resources for several years now in the service of our religious community. At some point however the congregation, the community needs to make a financial investment through regular contributions in order for a church or temple to exist. It?s just a fact of life.?

In your opinion how will you do it, and what will it take to establish a church in Los Angeles?

?Orunmila has already provided clear guidance in this regard, but I can?t go into detail in that regard. Because the real estate market is so out of whack and has been for quite some time we have to look for anyone in the community who is willing to contribute commercial office space that meets the needs of the church and its various functions. Some time after that if the church is successful we may be able to outright pay for the lease or purchase a property.?

It?s also a fragmented community. Most of them don?t understand the need for a centralized authority in which they can rely on and seek guidance.

?True. This is one of the many issues facing our vast religious community. However I have spoken to many people in the community and many feel that there is a need for an established temple or church that properly represents them, but they always seem to take the wait and see approach. They are also a distrusting group of people and find it difficult to follow some of the elders in the community. That?s another issue altogether.?

Can you please explain a little more how the Palo.Org established itself at your present location?

"From 1994 to 1999 we used our office space and home in Lancaster California to conduct fellowship and worship services on a temporary basis, but found this approach somewhat restrictive. Because of the nature of our type of worship in the secular community we also found that we could not fully perform our services without outside interference. We then decided through the assistance and counsel of the Orishas that it would be in the best interest of our worshipers to relocate to a remote region of Los Angeles County."

How did relocating to your present location benefit your temple?

"Relocating to an agricultural region was a choice the Orishas made for us at the time, and has served as a great benefit by avoiding the common secular issues faced by many faithful adherents in our communities who are located in regions zoned for residential use. Although we promote freedom of religion and practice, we have to be conscious of the fact that the secular community presents a serious obstacle in the freedom of our practices. Though our determination to freely practice should not be an issue, and that we should be able to conduct all manner of religious practice in the privacy of our own homes, we need to be fully aware that there are real problems facing our community when we disregard established zoning laws."

You're referring to zoning laws because of the use of animals in religious ceremonies?

"Yes of course. This is not a matter that can be easily solved since there is a real need to conduct different types of ceremonies in the privacy of one's home. On the Palo.Org website we provided a short article on the state of religious freedom in the United States, and the fact that there seems to be a misunderstanding of the Supreme Court decision of 1993, CHURCH OF THE LUKUMI BABALU AYE, INC. and ERNESTO PICHARDO, PETITIONERS v. CITY OF HIALEAH, concerning our right to freely practice our religion without interference in the privacy of our home."

Article reads: "While we at the Palo And Lukumi Organization cannot offer you any legal advice, we can give you some general ideas of the state of religious freedom in the United States. The issue of religious practice within the privacy of ones home is protected by the First Amendment prohibition against government interference with religion.? The standard set out by the Supreme Court is that if there are general laws that are applicable to everyone (and which do not target any specific group), which also infringe upon an individual's free exercise of their religion, then it is a permissible intrusion.? Because of this, if there are zoning laws that do not allow slaughter of animals in residential areas, etc., then there is a strong likelihood that courts will uphold such restrictions, even if it does interfere with your religion.? One way of dealing with this situation is to find out
if your state has a state Religious Freedom Restoration Act in place.? If so, a claim could be made under such state provisions, or possibly even under state constitutional law. Under either a state RFRA or a state constitution, the government must have a compelling interest in upholding a law that impinges upon religious practices. If this is still not clear, then it is highly recommended to seek the advice of an area attorney."

"I wrote this short article after receiving advice from a non-profit law firm 9 years ago after they called me for advice. It was an interesting exchange. The article was placed online on Palo.Org back then and has been read by nearly one million visitors."

So the misunderstanding is that the government can interfere when zoning laws are violated?

"From my understanding, yes. Although I have to be clear that I am referring to the use of animals in the privacy of one?s home in residentially zoned areas. Zoning laws are applicable to everyone and should not target one specific group or religion. As I understand the Supreme Court decision, the fundamental reason why the Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye in Hialeah Florida won their case is because the City of Hialeah purposely targeted the CLBA by passing ordinances that specifically prohibited their religious practices. This decision cleared the way for the CLBA to conduct all manner of religious ceremony within the confines of their temple or church without any restriction of the use of animals for sacrifice. Unfortunately the Supreme Court decision does not extend to the practice of religion when using animals for sacrifice within the privacy of one's home in residentially zoned areas.

Obviously the CLBA was not established within a residentially zoned area, but rather in a commercially or special purpose zoned area during the time that the City of Hialeah passed the unlawful ordinances against them. I don?t believe our religious community really understands or appreciates the genius of this strategy. The strategy established by the Orishas. Think about it."

The Supreme Court decision favors the church instead of the individual is what I?m gathering?

?Not necessarily true. The First Ammendment clearly establishes our right to freely practice our religion without government interference. Case law also establishes that a ?church? can be established within the privacy of one?s home. The government can not interfere in your religious practices even within your home. Nor can they interfere if you conduct a religious gathering at a park or at the beach for example.

However, as stated in the short article on the Palo.Org, the government can in fact establish laws that are applied equally and is without prejudice to any one group or another. In the case of animal slaughter in residential areas zoning laws establish equal prohibition without prejudice. One can assume by past experience that the law is generally applied for health and safety reasons.?

If the church can conduct animal sacrifice without restrictions, then why should individual worshipers be limited?

?To be clear, if the government established that we as a religious group can bypass or ignore residential zoning laws so that we could exercise our ?religious freedom?, then the government will be violating the basic principles of the first amendment. The first amendment reads: ?Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;?

In the case of residential zoning laws the law is applied equally to all. If one has an established church, temple, or synagogue, then this is not an issue. Remember, permissible intrusion only applies when a person or group of persons is in violation of the law. Please understand that I don?t like to have any restrictions placed on our religious practices, but we have to obey ?Man?s Law? in as much as it is applied equally to all.

Personally it?s a matter I wish we never had to deal with, but the fact is that we don?t live in a society that fully understands or accepts our way of life. I will defend anyone?s decision to fully practice our way of life within the privacy of their home even if it violates zoning laws, as a matter of principle, but by making that choice one has to accept the legal consequences.

However this brings up two interesting issues. Firstly, the priest that conducts an animal sacrifice in a residentially zoned area in violation of zoning laws is only in violation of a zoning law and should only be assessed a fine in accordance to the actual violation. Secondly, because animal sacrifice is an established religious practice, any charge of animal cruelty etc should never be filed against the priest by the authorities.

Even the CLBA from what I remember tried to educate their community in Hialeah (Miami) that they should conduct ceremonies at their church. Obviously the overall community didn?t pay attention and decided to conduct religious business as usual in their homes. The people basically ignored the CLBA and the Pichardo family after the 1993 decision and from that time to the present the church never achieved the prominence it deserves.?

But the CLBA won the 1993 case for everyone right?

?Absolutely. What the CLBA did was phenomenal.?

So why are we still dealing with the animal sacrifice problems today?

?Simply because nearly everyone falsely relied on the 1993 court case as the final decision that established our religious right to sacrifice animals, and specifically to freely exercise our right to sacrifice animals within the privacy of our homes. The job was not completed because state, county, and local governments across America were oblivious to the 1993 decision. Did people think that these ordinances were going to fade from the law books on their own?

Once the 1993 decision became the law of the land the community should have fully backed the efforts of the CLBA by joining their church and contribute a substantial sum of money to help in the effort to amend and change the laws across the country that still prejudiced our worshipers. It takes a good amount of resources to do this. Instead, in the wake of the 1993 victory people in our community especially in South Florida turned their backs on the CLBA and the Pichardo family, but what can one really expect from this community??

So why make the effort to establish a church in Los Angeles when we already know that this community is so fragmented and selfish?

?We do it for the greater good of the community overall. We do it for those worshipers who are not selfish, and desire true fellowship. Fellowship is necessary and highly desired by a substantial number of worshipers. We do it for the lost souls who have been ruined or taken advantage of by others in the community and by imposters. We do it for the those who can?t afford to feed their eggun, eshu or orisha, let alone themselves. We do it for those elderly priests and worshipers who do not have proper or adequate religious or spiritual representation. How many times have you learned that an elderly priest or priestess has passed away without having had their ceremonial rites carried out?? Many times. What about the many Apetebi or Awofacan who don?t have Osha crowned and have passed away without their ceremonial rites carried out? Too many to list.

We do it to educate a new class of worshiper. The worshiper that needs to be more community focused rather than focus on their selfish interests. We do it because Orunmila directed me to do so. That my friend is Faithful Obedience, and I obey his sacred word.?

Have you and your family contributed to the CLBA?

?That takes me down memory lane. Let me say that back in 1986 or 1987 we had a huge gathering of elders and junior religious members. It was held either in La Puente or El Monte area of Los Angeles, I can?t remember. Everyone there including my religious elder and godmother Olga Martinez Olo Obatala who represented our ile (house/temple), gave a contribution to the CLBA. All her godchildren gave what they could at the time, and as I clearly recall we gave a contribution on more than one occasion as did many others in the community.

Not long afterwards many of the people that had contributed to the CLBA, not sure if the CLBA was established at the time as an incorporated entity in Florida, gathered at a church in South Pasadena that was for sale. Actually the CLBA was established in 1974 from what I remember. We all went through the typical church tour and had great expectations of establishing a congregation for our religious community here in Los Angeles. Remember this was back in 1986 or 1987 when many people in the community were being arrested on animal cruelty charges in Los Angeles, and quite a few folks lived in fear.

However not long afterwards we come to find out that there would be no church for us in South Pasadena. This left quite a few elders in the community with ill feelings towards the Pichardo family. This was evident at every religious gathering we attended in the greater Los Angeles area. There was a feeling of betrayal and misrepresentation. I couldn?t say if their feelings were warranted or not, but by not establishing even an office in the Los Angeles area I can see why many elders in the community felt as they did. Again I could be wrong about this, maybe they did establish a local church presence, government, or authority, but I for one did not see it, and I was involved in the community long before the 1993 Supreme Court decision.

By the time the 1993 court case was decided, for the majority of the Los Angeles religious community, the CLBA and the Pichardo family was irrelevant. Unjustly so, but still irrelevant. The only thing that mattered to the community here in Los Angeles and across America was that ?WE? had a victory. By ?WE? I mean all of us and not the CLBA or the Pichardos. Unfortunately the CLBA was only an after thought after the 1993 victory. This is part of the reason why it?s so difficult to establish a stable temple or church in any community; the overall lack of respect and consideration.?

That?s very interesting Oluwo. Oluwo I?m interested in your earlier comments when I asked you why make the effort to establish a church. You gave me a list of reasons. Wouldn?t you need substantial resources to get this done?

?Yes of course. Obviously a church, temple, or synagogue can?t be established nor can it survive without some kind of financial resource or revenue stream. That?s the material, the brick and mortar end of things as I can put it. Things such as a lease, mortgage, insurance, maintenance etc need to be taken care of on a regular basis obviously. Then there?s the cost of labor. A priest needs to be compensated for his or her work when services are performed. We have to keep in mind that there?s a real business aspect to religion.?

You say there?s a business aspect to religion, but is there a mechanism in place to ensure accountability?

?That?s a good question. Yes there is always a real mechanism in place to account for church funds. In fact this is something that is handled be the administrative arm of the church.?

Will you ever consider implementing a tithing contribution from members of the church?

?The church is the people. So if we were to establish a physical church in Los Angeles, then we have to consider all options to be able to survive. If members don?t contribute in one form or another then the reality is that a physical church will never survive let alone get off the ground.?

What about joining or supporting one of the local organizations like the new babalawo association in Los Angeles?

?On the surface this would be a wonderful idea. However our mission is quite different than other organizations and this has already been clearly established by Orunmila.?

In what respect if I may ask?

?I mentioned some of that earlier in the reasons why we do what we do. Clearly the fellowship aspect is very important. This gives our worshipers a sense of belonging and identity. I?m not talking about having a drumming once every three months, or a misa (spiritual mass) once a month. I?m talking about actually having weekly and biweekly services. This is not common in our community. I?m talking about education and about taking care of our worshipers in need. I?m talking about using the mechanism and spiritual aspects of Ifa to provide personal and family counseling. This is really needed in today?s society. There?s a host of other things we can do but they will be addressed at the appropriate time.?

Will you be providing counseling to church members only?

?No. The most common aspect of being a babalawo is to provide counseling and guidance to all members of the community, secular and non-secular alike. The only difference is that members who contribute donations to the church on a regular basis will be able to make counseling appointments without having to pay for services.?

That?s very interesting, This is quite a departure from what we know today.

?Of course it is. This is in line with our mission as directed by Orunmila.?

So you?re basically saying that this is a full time job?

?Yes but I don?t look at it as a job. It?s a calling.?

?You said that a babalawo counsels secular and non-secular people alike. There?s no contradiction here?

?No. Ifa teaches us that we must accept all people from all walks of life and that we must maintain neutrality when dealing with all of God?s children. As an example you will find this to exist in the odu ifa Iwory-pokon, Iwory Okana. We have to respect all faiths.?

Have you had the opportunity to counsel people of other religions?

?Yes quite regularly actually. Several years ago before the passing of my godmother I assisted her with a couple of African-American ministers each with their own congregations. Believe it or not we have a sizable number of Jewish faithful that always come to see babalawos for personal and business issues, and I?ve been fortunate to assist several of these brothers and sisters as well. For the most part the majority of the people seeking advice are usually someone from a catholic upbringing. I suppose this has to do with the ?saints? aspect of Santeria.?

Oluwo I don?t want to take up any more of your time. Is there anything in regards to what we?ve discussed or something that you have on your mind that you want to express in closing?

?We need to find a way to establish our church or temple here in Los Angeles. There?s a real need to have an established physical presence in the community. This is something that several members of the community have expressed desire in and have looked towards my leadership in helping to provide it. My family and I will do everything in our power to make this a reality for your community, but we need help. A church can not be built simply wishing for it. We hope that someone is able to contribute to the needs of the community and provide us with an opportunity to better serve our faithful followers.?

Thank you Oluwo. May Olodumare make this a reality for you and the community.